What is Civilization

topic posted Fri, December 1, 2006 - 11:43 AM by  offlinec.
After reading through a wonderfully entertaining thread dealing with the Mayan’s and if they deserve the title civilized. I was wondering what civilization meant to some of you.
As I have access to and OED and can find Wikipedia on my own I was hoping to hear some original thoughts.
posted by:
c.
online c.
Tucson
  • Re: What is Civilization

    Fri, December 1, 2006 - 1:43 PM
    a key term in a discourse use for justifying various imperial and/or nationalist projects from, i'd guess, roughly the seventeenth century to today. not much else. i'd bet it comes out of the twist german romanticist historicism (esp. Herder) gave to the enlightenment's historical self-understanding. but there is quite a bit of literature out there on this, actually, cf. especially post-colonial theory.
    • Re: What is Civilization

      Fri, December 1, 2006 - 5:13 PM
      The post-colonial appraoch seems like a reasonable critique of the moralizing that often comes with use of the term, but I'd say there's more to it than just that. It doesn't strike me as an altogether-useless idea, or a pure product of the colonial mind.

      A significant factor for distinguishing what people have sometimes called "civilizations" is the degree of complexity societies exhibit. That is, the degree to which a large number of social and economic "units" are coupled to one another. I'd say that's a decent measure of the degree to which a large number of people over a wide geographical range are coordinated in terms of their economic and cultural actions and objectives, and that this is largely what we mean by civilization.

      I don't think the use of the term, or even the judgment that one lives within a civilization, necessarily implies a judgment of people "outside", though it does seem to usually go that way. But before we start blaming the Europeans, let's remember the Chinese have had a concept of their own cultural superiority at least since the Song dynasty. In-group favoring rhetoric is hardly a European invention.
      • Re: What is Civilization

        Sun, December 3, 2006 - 11:37 AM
        well it might be a "decent" measure but it isn't an adequate one. it's questionable how useful categories of social complexity are in general even if you divide it further into tribe, chiefdom, state etc. much less a binary between civilized/uncivilized. it's certainly glaringly relevant that the creators of that binary sat on the civilized side and formulated it with overtly racist intentions. and inadequate measures are often an impediment to understanding as they mislead one into thinking one understands what one does not.


        "I'd say that's a decent measure of the degree to which a large number of people over a wide geographical range are coordinated in terms of their economic and cultural actions and objectives, and that this is largely what we mean by civilization."


        no but social science does not profit by perpetuating it.

        "In-group favoring rhetoric is hardly a European invention. "
  • Re: What is Civilization

    Mon, December 4, 2006 - 12:35 PM
    I don't have any straight answer for the question, but this is the internet, so I feel obligated to add my two cents because no one cares... Good old internet!

    I try to stay away from using the word 'civilization', precisely because of this question and the points others have brought up in trying to address it. Civilization implies civilized, which is at best an arbitrary judgement, and at worst a put down, as in 'un-'. In the past, very specific and arbitrary factors have been used to determine what is and is not civilized: the type and amount of clothing worn, the type of food eaten and how/when food is consumed, the amount of warfare, the religious ceremonies... things that could and should vary widely from group to group (should being a statement that uniformity is just no fun!).

    When describing the subject, I prefer the term 'society'... it's more neutral, to me, and describes the situation a bit better. A group of people in a constant social setting. It's about the socialibility of the thing: norms, values, laws, cooperation, etc.

    I'm under the weather, so I'm going to stop there, because the cold medicine is making me vague. I just wanted to bring up the option of not using the word, if one finds that the lingering connotations of the word are unsatisfactory, etc.
    • Re: What is Civilization

      Mon, December 4, 2006 - 2:13 PM
      > Civilization implies civilized, which is at best an arbitrary judgement

      Arbitrary judgments are not unimportant or wrong by virtue of being arbitrary. From the point of view of Central African Islam, it may be a moral and civilized practice to perform female gential circumcision. From my arbitrary point of view, I regard this practice as barbaric and depraved.
      • Re: What is Civilization

        Mon, December 4, 2006 - 2:44 PM
        I'm not saying arbitrary is bad, but in academia I try to stay away from arbitrary. You need something you can stick fast by and communicate to other people with a general commonality. For me, civilization isn't one of those words that communicates well to everyone, and it doesn't to me, so I don't use it.
        • Re: What is Civilization

          Fri, December 8, 2006 - 8:09 PM

          I had a prof once who was completely anti-civilization, in both an academic and feral sense. He preffered the term "complex society" which, although I find etymologically debatable, was based on three categories that seem quite reasonable:

          1) High Population density
          2) Organization in a state (basically based on supra-parental citizenship)
          3) Production of surplus

          It's a much more open guidline than the various arbitrary definitions of civilization - some of the most byzantine victorian versions include bibles and toothbrushes- although it could be a good idea to think of a term with less of a colonial tinge to it...
          • Re: What is Civilization

            Sat, December 9, 2006 - 6:29 AM
            Yeah, this all boils down to semantics. Is "civilization" a set of conditions, or is it a semantic catch-all for "our culture is better than theirs"? Many folks' disagreement with the very idea of civilization, with the very word itself, has a basis in the implication that if one is "civilized', then Those Other People must be, by definition, 'uncivilized'....... by whose standards?

            While I don't need to explain this to most of the people on this list, it remains a fact that throughout history, aggressor nations, states, regions or tribes, by declaring the Other to be "uncivilized" (also occasionally including the term savage, or infidel, or heathen, or gauche, or smelly, or stupid, or Liberal, or French, etc.), have used this term as the justification for political and military conquest, subjugation of entire
            peoples, forced monocrop production, trade, slavery, colonial occupation, war, systematic destruction of indigenous culture and religion, and even genocide.

            I don't even like the WORD "Civilization". But hey, it's all semantics. I like the previous definition, for academic purposes, just not "factual" description that are subjective as declaring one group "civilized" and some or all ohers, "uncivilized".

            Hope this wasn't boring.

            T
            • Re: What is Civilization

              Sat, January 20, 2007 - 3:08 PM
              From Maya come the 0,from Italics the turbines and the hall of ships,from american natives jeans and shirts every other people sharing with the community something of good are considered inferior as civility.Everybody has made of violence and oppression his way to be has proclamed himself civilized exploiting these people of their civility.Civility is just a Pandora box.
  • Re: What is Civilization

    Sat, March 24, 2007 - 3:28 PM
    Civilization is a term used as a symbol amongst others in a set for maintaining the boundaries of a community.
    I mean, it's a subjective term that changes meaning depending on who uses it, and when, and in what context.
    That's how I think civilization should be looked at as an anthropologist,
    a way of reading an aspect of a culture's identity.

    Having a value in the word itself, from an anthropologists point of view,
    creates bias and prejudice.
    There's no line of progress or distinction that the term civilized can discern.
    Something isn't better then the other,
    whether it be the materialistic nature itself or an idea of a normal identity.
    It's fluid, created in the interaction amongst people.
    Civilization changes, moves through and together with values and norms.
  • Re: What is Civilization

    Mon, July 23, 2007 - 4:13 PM
    i like to think of "Civilized" as "Domesticated" - as thesaurus.com puts it, "calm, devoted, domiciliary, family, home, home-loving, homelike, homely, housewifely, indoor, pet, private, sedentary, settled, stay-at-home, subdued, submissive, tame, trained, tranquil, wifely"

    i think it conveys the proper connotations inherent in "more complex" ("more controlled" ?) societies
  • Re: What is Civilization

    Tue, July 24, 2007 - 7:07 PM
    Agriculture, structured division of labor, and specialization/trade/barter, and later currency, define cilivilization to me. And in more tongue in cheek terms, "Civilization!!!" is my tribal yell whenever I find a clean bathroom in some way out place on the planet. :-)
  • Re: What is Civilization

    Fri, April 4, 2008 - 11:03 PM
    I think people have a civilization when they can think of someone as a neighbor without having met them before.
    • Re: What is Civilization

      Tue, April 8, 2008 - 3:10 AM
      <<I think people have a civilization when they can think of someone as a neighbor without having met them before. >>

      Bloody nice ! You shall be quoted !
      • Re: What is Civilization

        Tue, April 8, 2008 - 2:00 PM
        Hmmmm...... "Civilization". I'm reminded that there's an old joke about the difference between Heaven and Hell that might also be applied to "civilization", since we're getting way beyond semantics and historical misuse of the term. I'm going to steal directly from that quote about Heaven and Hell-

        "Ah, Civilization- where the police are British, the chefs are French, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian, and it’s all organized by the Swiss! " I'd also like to add "Where the motorcycles are American, the artists are European, the tattooers are Japanese and the recreational drugs are Dutch". >;-D

        The original quote, for those who don't know it, is this-

        >>"In Heaven, the police are British, the chefs are French, the mechanics are German, the lovers are Italian, and it’s all organized by the Swiss! In Hell, the chefs are British, the mechanics are French, the police are German, the lovers are Swiss, and it’s all organized by the Italians!"<<

        Peace.

        T


  • Re: What is Civilization

    Fri, April 18, 2008 - 2:06 PM
    I'm posting a -- tentative -- couple of paragraphs from a preliminary draft of my dissertation, concerning "civilization." Comments welcome!

    civilization: Winick's Dictionary of Anthropology defines "civilization": A degree of fairly advanced culture, in which the arts and sciences, are well developed.

    V. Gordon Child sees the essential characteristics of civilization as internal social hierarchies, specialization, cities, and large populations, and the growth of mathematics and writing.

    Oxford includes definitions of "civilization":

    "2. The action or process of civilizing or of being civilized. ...
    "3. (More usually) Civilized condition or state; a developed or advanced state of human society; a particular stage or a particular type of this. The dictionary definitions do not convey the full connotative 'load' of "civilized" and "civilized" as uncritically positive."

    Anthropologists have wrested with non-value-laden words to use instead of "civilized," including "south," "Western," "metropolitan," and others. After an extensive search for a value-neutral word, Wub-e-ke-niew settled on Lislakh:

    "I am using this word, which was brought into the English language by linguist Carleton Hodge, to refer to the inter-related and historically connected peoples who share societal, cultural, language and/or patrilineal roots within that usually referred to as an abstract entity, Western Civilization. Lislakh includes Germanic people and the heirs of the Roman Empire (who speak languages academically categorized as Indo-European), as well as the Arabic and other peoples whose languages are categorized as Semitic, and the Moorish and other North African and Middle Eastern peoples who have common and long-standing historical inter-relation­ships within the context of Western Civilization.

    "Lislakh was coined as an abstract analytical category, although it describes historical and present reality. The word is used ... to refer not only to the common roots of the Lislakh people, but also to their often violent co-history during their millennia of expansion. That the word Lislakh is a neologism of limited circulation is itself a manifestation of the ethos of English-speaking and other Lislakh peoples, symptomatic of the abstract isolationism of their linguistic structures and of the extent to which these peoples have been severed from their roots and their own identity.

    "In using the word Lislakh, I do not presume to define those people to whom I refer--especially not in the ways that they have tried to re-define and label the Aboriginal Indigenous people as Indians, and have imposed their derogatory names, projections and stereotypes onto the indigenous peoples whose land they have expropriated. I observe, however, that these people who have no name for themselves urgently need to come to terms with their identity, their past history, their roots, and their present reality: both as an inter-connected group of people, and as human beings with inherent responsibilities. The people to whom I refer as Lislakh must no longer go about stealing from each other and from other peoples; they can not continue to shirk their responsibilities toward Grandmother Earth. Because our concern in this dissertation includes the urbanized, hierarchical peoples of Asia, Africa, and Mesoamerica, Lislakh is inadequate." [quoted from Wub-e-ke-niew's 1995 book, We Have The Right To Exist.]


    We shall therefore borrow the word · Sivilized from Mark Twain (1904:1, 388), since the meaning is clear and it is value-neutral.
    • Re: What is Civilization

      Sun, May 11, 2008 - 11:19 PM
      'civilized' is purely in the eye of the beholder.plain and simple.
      in my culture,putting your feet on anyone is considered extremely uncouth and disrespectful.as nasty as being slapped or spit on.
      it is so much so,that,the worst thing someone can do to you is kick you-in violence.and this is very evident in popular culture!
      when i saw people of other cultures as a grade schooler kicking each other in play, i was shocked! that is a 'fighting' offense!
      i would think to myself ' what trash they are,they kick each other! how uncouth,they have no manners!"
      but now, i find it ironic that 'everyone' in a certain age group now sees being 'stomped' or kicked the ultimate insult.

      the kids that kicked each other were oblivious to my thoughts...
      it was fine to them to kick their buddy in the rear end. it was funny.

      'civilized' only applies to the culture that is describing itself.

      ~vdoll

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