I know I'm late to find this article, and I dont recall if there was a big deal made of this discovery or not, but I figured it couldnt hurt to post. Its kind of a mind blowing concept, that no matter how vague they could be, these prophets could also be legit. That implies that other historical "psychic" phenomena that we take for granted is either blown out of proportion or never happened might also have a solid basis in fact.
The sad part is, if we hadn't played with the water supply, this site might still be considered sacred, uncanny, or just special, but it might even now be producing prophets. Can you imagine? Taking a look at how this unique combination of gasses works on the human brain, possibly refining it for use (both good and bad, I know).
It also makes you wonder--if this had enough basis in fact for people to use and trust in these oracles for several hundred years, enough basis that years later we might be able to explain or even duplicate this, what about other legends? And if its possible if we hadnt altered the area that the "magic" would still be happening, what about other "magical" sites? How much of the wonder of the world have we destroyed through sheer clumsiness and ignorance?
Reeeeally makes you think, doesnt it?
I take no credit for anything beneath the stars.
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Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
www.hallucinogens.com/delphi/
By Guy Gugliotta
Washington Post Staff Writer
February 4, 2002
They warned Oedipus to stay away from his mother, told Orestes to go ahead and kill his, caused Croesus to lose to the Persians, then helped Athens defeat them. So what's the story with the priestesses at Delphi? Did they really channel for Apollo, or were they just high on something?
Scientists don't know about Apollo, but evidence is growing that the priestesses, known as pythia, were ripped on hydrocarbon gases, especially ethylene, a sometime anesthetic which, taken in modest doses, can induce lively conversation of a somewhat incoherent nature.
This is because the Temple of Apollo at Delphi sits on crisscrossing geological faults, according to a team of scientists led by archaeologist John Hale of the University of Louisville and geologist Jelle Zeilinga de Boer of Wesleyan University in Connecticut.
In re-embracing the ancients' view that intoxicants emanated from water bubbling from a rock fissure beneath the temple, Hale said, the team is challenging a century of research that held "that the priests and oracle were deceiving the public and inventing stories" to boost the shrine's importance.
Instead, it appears the ancients were right. "I thought that if there is an active fault, there were most likely gases coming up through fissures," Zeilinga de Boer said. And if that were true, traces would show up in the travertine that underpins the temple. Travertine is a type of limestone.
And so it proved. Reporting recently in the journal Geology, the team said that tests on the Delphi rock and the waters of a nearby spring showed the presence of methane and ethane, which can be intoxicating, as well as ethylene, widely used as an anesthetic in the first half of the 20th century.
"It was a great gas," said toxicologist Henry Spiller, director of the Kentucky Regional Poison Center in Louisville and another member of the Delphi team. "It produces a very rapid onset of effects, and leaves the heart alone." Unfortunately, "it is also explosive [and] dangerous for the surgeon," Spiller added, which is why modern medicine eventually abandoned it.
Ethylene, Spiller explained, produces "stages" of anesthesia. Low doses induce "disembodied euphoria, with periods of excitation and amnesia," he said. But at higher doses, "you get delirium, hysteria and a combative, agitated state," he added. Further along comes unconsciousness and, if one is not careful, death.
All of this squares nicely with historical accounts. As a high priest at the temple in the 1st century A.D., the biographer Plutarch noted that the pythia delivered oracles from a tripod in a small below-ground chamber bathed in gases carried up by underground springs.
Most of the time, the priestess was conscious, clever and chatty, but on occasion she flipped out, and things got nasty. The bad trips, including a death reported by Plutarch, had led past Delphi administrators to swap out the young maidens they used to put in the seat for more levelheaded matrons.
Today the temple ruins, on the slopes of Mount Parnassus 100 miles northwest of Athens, are probably the most visited place in Greece after the Acropolis, but Hale said archaeological evidence suggests the ancient Greeks probably regarded Delphi as a holy place from its founding, about 1400 B.C.
The shrine's heyday began about 800 B.C., Hale said, when Greek colonists sought Apollo's blessing before they set sail for Italy, Sicily, Spain, the Black Sea and Africa. The oracle didn't go out of business until A.D. 393, when the Christian emperor Theodosius shut it down.
The oracle's warnings and advice figure prominently in Greek mythology. After the Trojan War, when Orestes asked whether he should seek vengeance on his mother for murdering his father, Agamemnon, the oracle gave him the green light.
Told by the oracle that he would murder his father and marry his mother, Oedipus did everything possible to avoid the inevitable, but failed.
In actual practice, however, the oracle's chief shortcoming was the ambiguity of her advice. Croesus, king of Lydia, went to war against Cyrus of Persia after the oracle told him that "a great nation would fall" if he crossed the Halys River. Unfortunately, the great nation turned out to be his own.
And in 480 B.C., after the Athenians rejected the oracle's opening prediction that the invading Persians would trash them, the priestess suggested they make use of "a wall of wood." The Athenians correctly interpreted this to mean ships, and subsequently defeated Xerxes at sea in the Battle of Salamis.
Delphi's original excavation was performed by French archaeologists, who at first found no gas emissions beneath the temple. An article published in English in 1904 suggested the fissure idea was "all a mistake," Hale said.
"This view defined the debate" for the next 90 years, and was reinforced by mid- century research suggesting that emissions of intoxicating gas were impossible without volcanic activity, Hale said.
"But this was archaeologists, mainly," said geologist Luigi Piccardi of Italy's National Research Council in Florence, whose own research in Greece reflects many of the U.S. team's conclusions. "The mechanics of active faulting are something only recently understood."
Geologists have known for years that much of Greece is in one of the world's most active seismological areas. Delphi sits in the middle of the east-west "Corinth Rift Zone," which slices the country in half.
In the mid-1990s, Zeilinga de Boer spotted an active east-west fault traveling beneath the Delphi temple and challenged Hale, a believer in the no-emissions theory, to rethink his views.
Together, the pair found a second fault running north and south beneath the temple, and discovered that the French had indeed found fissures in the bedrock but had only published their results in the 1920s, long after scientists had lost interest.
"The geology is very young, and you have things happening before your eyes," Zeilinga de Boer said. Deep in the earth, seismic forces grind the fault edges together, building tremendous heat that causes vaporized hydrocarbons to funnel upward, joining groundwater to bubble up in springs through fissures in the ground.
Spring water near the temple still has plenty of gases in it, Zeilinga de Boer said. The only reason gas doesn't permeate the temple today is because modern Delphi is channeling most of the groundwater into reservoirs: "The gas bubbles off before the water goes to the municipal system," he said.
The sad part is, if we hadn't played with the water supply, this site might still be considered sacred, uncanny, or just special, but it might even now be producing prophets. Can you imagine? Taking a look at how this unique combination of gasses works on the human brain, possibly refining it for use (both good and bad, I know).
It also makes you wonder--if this had enough basis in fact for people to use and trust in these oracles for several hundred years, enough basis that years later we might be able to explain or even duplicate this, what about other legends? And if its possible if we hadnt altered the area that the "magic" would still be happening, what about other "magical" sites? How much of the wonder of the world have we destroyed through sheer clumsiness and ignorance?
Reeeeally makes you think, doesnt it?
I take no credit for anything beneath the stars.
***************************************************************************
Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
www.hallucinogens.com/delphi/
By Guy Gugliotta
Washington Post Staff Writer
February 4, 2002
They warned Oedipus to stay away from his mother, told Orestes to go ahead and kill his, caused Croesus to lose to the Persians, then helped Athens defeat them. So what's the story with the priestesses at Delphi? Did they really channel for Apollo, or were they just high on something?
Scientists don't know about Apollo, but evidence is growing that the priestesses, known as pythia, were ripped on hydrocarbon gases, especially ethylene, a sometime anesthetic which, taken in modest doses, can induce lively conversation of a somewhat incoherent nature.
This is because the Temple of Apollo at Delphi sits on crisscrossing geological faults, according to a team of scientists led by archaeologist John Hale of the University of Louisville and geologist Jelle Zeilinga de Boer of Wesleyan University in Connecticut.
In re-embracing the ancients' view that intoxicants emanated from water bubbling from a rock fissure beneath the temple, Hale said, the team is challenging a century of research that held "that the priests and oracle were deceiving the public and inventing stories" to boost the shrine's importance.
Instead, it appears the ancients were right. "I thought that if there is an active fault, there were most likely gases coming up through fissures," Zeilinga de Boer said. And if that were true, traces would show up in the travertine that underpins the temple. Travertine is a type of limestone.
And so it proved. Reporting recently in the journal Geology, the team said that tests on the Delphi rock and the waters of a nearby spring showed the presence of methane and ethane, which can be intoxicating, as well as ethylene, widely used as an anesthetic in the first half of the 20th century.
"It was a great gas," said toxicologist Henry Spiller, director of the Kentucky Regional Poison Center in Louisville and another member of the Delphi team. "It produces a very rapid onset of effects, and leaves the heart alone." Unfortunately, "it is also explosive [and] dangerous for the surgeon," Spiller added, which is why modern medicine eventually abandoned it.
Ethylene, Spiller explained, produces "stages" of anesthesia. Low doses induce "disembodied euphoria, with periods of excitation and amnesia," he said. But at higher doses, "you get delirium, hysteria and a combative, agitated state," he added. Further along comes unconsciousness and, if one is not careful, death.
All of this squares nicely with historical accounts. As a high priest at the temple in the 1st century A.D., the biographer Plutarch noted that the pythia delivered oracles from a tripod in a small below-ground chamber bathed in gases carried up by underground springs.
Most of the time, the priestess was conscious, clever and chatty, but on occasion she flipped out, and things got nasty. The bad trips, including a death reported by Plutarch, had led past Delphi administrators to swap out the young maidens they used to put in the seat for more levelheaded matrons.
Today the temple ruins, on the slopes of Mount Parnassus 100 miles northwest of Athens, are probably the most visited place in Greece after the Acropolis, but Hale said archaeological evidence suggests the ancient Greeks probably regarded Delphi as a holy place from its founding, about 1400 B.C.
The shrine's heyday began about 800 B.C., Hale said, when Greek colonists sought Apollo's blessing before they set sail for Italy, Sicily, Spain, the Black Sea and Africa. The oracle didn't go out of business until A.D. 393, when the Christian emperor Theodosius shut it down.
The oracle's warnings and advice figure prominently in Greek mythology. After the Trojan War, when Orestes asked whether he should seek vengeance on his mother for murdering his father, Agamemnon, the oracle gave him the green light.
Told by the oracle that he would murder his father and marry his mother, Oedipus did everything possible to avoid the inevitable, but failed.
In actual practice, however, the oracle's chief shortcoming was the ambiguity of her advice. Croesus, king of Lydia, went to war against Cyrus of Persia after the oracle told him that "a great nation would fall" if he crossed the Halys River. Unfortunately, the great nation turned out to be his own.
And in 480 B.C., after the Athenians rejected the oracle's opening prediction that the invading Persians would trash them, the priestess suggested they make use of "a wall of wood." The Athenians correctly interpreted this to mean ships, and subsequently defeated Xerxes at sea in the Battle of Salamis.
Delphi's original excavation was performed by French archaeologists, who at first found no gas emissions beneath the temple. An article published in English in 1904 suggested the fissure idea was "all a mistake," Hale said.
"This view defined the debate" for the next 90 years, and was reinforced by mid- century research suggesting that emissions of intoxicating gas were impossible without volcanic activity, Hale said.
"But this was archaeologists, mainly," said geologist Luigi Piccardi of Italy's National Research Council in Florence, whose own research in Greece reflects many of the U.S. team's conclusions. "The mechanics of active faulting are something only recently understood."
Geologists have known for years that much of Greece is in one of the world's most active seismological areas. Delphi sits in the middle of the east-west "Corinth Rift Zone," which slices the country in half.
In the mid-1990s, Zeilinga de Boer spotted an active east-west fault traveling beneath the Delphi temple and challenged Hale, a believer in the no-emissions theory, to rethink his views.
Together, the pair found a second fault running north and south beneath the temple, and discovered that the French had indeed found fissures in the bedrock but had only published their results in the 1920s, long after scientists had lost interest.
"The geology is very young, and you have things happening before your eyes," Zeilinga de Boer said. Deep in the earth, seismic forces grind the fault edges together, building tremendous heat that causes vaporized hydrocarbons to funnel upward, joining groundwater to bubble up in springs through fissures in the ground.
Spring water near the temple still has plenty of gases in it, Zeilinga de Boer said. The only reason gas doesn't permeate the temple today is because modern Delphi is channeling most of the groundwater into reservoirs: "The gas bubbles off before the water goes to the municipal system," he said.
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Tue, August 8, 2006 - 11:18 PMI will point out that, if humans actually do have psychic abilities (an open question) there is a long tradition of using intoxication -- by various means -- to open them up. In other words, the fact that the Delphic Priestesses were getting high as part of their ritual does _not_ imply that they were not true oracles -- assuming that any such exist.
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Wed, August 9, 2006 - 10:14 AMwhy would you assume that such exist? -
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Wed, August 9, 2006 - 7:43 PMMostly, I think its worth a look with an open mind. If you look at the folklore and legends from country to country, some certain extrasensory "talents" are a constant, and can be found even in tales that pre-date contact with other cultures. Prophecy is one of those. We're fine with the idea of atoms, even though belief in them is basically a leap of faith for most. I've never seen one, chances are, neither have you. The only way we know they exist is because a scientist somewhere told us they do, and we trust their word. In religion, when someone tells you something unseeable is there and you trust them, you usually call that person "priest."
Point being, there is a body of evidence certain things exist that we cannot see, touch, or even really use in common day to day life. But we accept them because that body of evidence is there. A psychologst from Duke University was once quoted saying; "On any other subject, one tenth of the evidence would already have convinced me; on this subject, ten times the evidence would not convince me, because I know it to be impossible."
There is a body of evidence on the use of out-of-the-ordinary talents by humans the world over. These talents have been in legend and stories from the beginning of time, and recently have had some compelling experiments done that point to--if not the powers we thought were there, then at least that there ARE things we cannot explain, and perhaps should look into more deeply. However, no matter how compelling the evidence, even acknowledging there might be more to see is one of the last irational taboos of science. Scientists and anthropologists both are not supposed to be emotional about these things, but to come at them with unclouded minds and a standpoint of pure logic. In this one matter, we do not.
I'm not saying it can be proved as real, or that it cannot.
But I will stand by its worth thinking about, and a genuine look. -
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Thu, August 10, 2006 - 10:16 AMbut the "evidence" is not compelling. and we have reason to trust scientist, we have no reason to trust priests. -
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Wed, August 16, 2006 - 5:42 AMActually we dont have reason to trust either.
Both have been know to manipulate data to suit themselves. When I was working in the labs I got to see that little trick in acton.
If your grant and or ten year is riding on certain data , then let the chips fly sort of thing.
It wasn't that long ago that scientists believed that the universe revolved around the world, or that there was no such creature as the gorilla....suprise.
I dont think we need to bring up religions faux pas, too easy.
I dont know what the deal with precognition, or other phenomena is but I wouldn't be so quick to discount it without a great deal of research.
I have only begun reading neurophysics but wow, it really changes ones perception of how reality works.
Today we routinely enjoy and do things that would have mad our ansestory cry witch.
Its just a matter of time until we get around to understanding what went on at delphi -
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Thu, August 24, 2006 - 11:26 PMactually we do have reason to trust scientists. science works. the results are demonstratable. the computer you are typing on is a reason. we also have reasons to distrust them, and that's why peer review exists.
and regardless of proof that psychic abilities don't exist until we have compelling reason to believe that they do exist the concept is not really applicable to anthropological research.
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Wed, August 16, 2006 - 2:43 AMI don't assume that psychic powers exist.
I don't assume that they _don't_ exist either.
I don't think there's enough evidence to be sure either way.
One thing that I _do_ know is that focused meditation and dreaming can be useful in enhancing intuitive problem solving abilities. Which may have been what the Oracle of Delphi, aided by the priestly interpretation of her utterances, was doing.
It didn't hurt that the Priests of Delphi were apparently compiling travellers' tales from all over the known world -- and presumably informing the Oracle of what they discovered. In other words, they were the AP Wire Service of the Classical era ...
- Jordan
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Thu, August 24, 2006 - 1:09 PMIt's said that people lived by the 'fact' that the oracles were 'psychic'.
That's the important thing.
A person was warned of the future, tried to change it, and it happened anyway.
That was (is?) the truth for some people.
It's emic-vs-etic.
I believe you should engage into a mindset that is as close as possible to the people you research.
You could just watch them from the outside, but you wouldn't really understand them.
That's reason enough for me to assume that oracles exist.
If I don't assume they exist, I would be putting my own morals/values onto another culture,
like saying 'they were hallucinating' instead of 'they were having godly visions'. -
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Thu, August 24, 2006 - 11:29 PMtheir belief is the fact. and as anthropologists what we study is belief. it's irrelevant whether they were correct in their belief or not.
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Sun, August 27, 2006 - 4:14 PMhehe, you changed your mind? :) -
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Re: Faults Suggest a High Calling for Delphi Priestesses
Fri, September 8, 2006 - 2:59 PMi don't think you understood what i said.
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